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Author
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Topic: Polygraphs with closed eyes
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necotito2
Member
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posted 02-22-2008 06:31 PM
  
Hey everybody, need to know where do we stand with doing polygraphs with closed eyes, if there is any policy against it /for it, research done or whatsoever to back it up or put it down, if it's useful or not.
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Barry C
Member
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posted 02-22-2008 06:39 PM
Some like it; some think it's heresy. Nate Gordon cites somebody who found it to increase responses. The reasoning is that it forces the person to focus inwardly instead of outwardly (on distractions).I tell my examinees to do whatever they choose (opened or closed, that is) as it doesn't matter to me. I say a few things to hint that I'm not concerned about mental CMs too. IP: Logged |
ckieso
Member
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posted 02-22-2008 06:42 PM
I was trained at polygraph school to have the examinee close his/her eyes during the exam. It has been successful for me and I have had very few comments or complaints from the examinees. I do not remember who did the research on this, but I believe there was a person that did and found it to show that examinee's had greater responses especially in the GSR when they closed their eyes. IP: Logged |
rnelson
Member
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posted 02-22-2008 07:11 PM
Good questions necotito:Here is what I am aware of: Golden, R. I. (1966). The closed-eyes polygraph technique. The Journal of Polygraph Studies, 1 2, September-October, . I haven't read it. Maybe someone else has. Its really old (not that there's anything inherently wrong with that). But a lot has changed since 1966 - like numerical scoring... I wouldn't hope for any clear answers. There is an important thing to consider when we ask question or need to make decisions or recommendation about a matter for which we have little actual information. One danger is to assume we know more than we actually do. It is tempting for people with a lot of experience (especially if they are the strong minded type) to overstate their assertions about matters for which we lack data. Of course, if someone has studied this, then Nate or someone should name that person. Those of us who live and work around legal systems have become used to the legalistic method, in which judges and juries still have to make decision about matters for which they lack expertise, and so defer to subject matter experts for guidance. In science, though, that is troublesome. Expert opinions are simply untested hypotheses. Pretending to know something we haven't studied is to lull ourselves into a state of confident ignorance. The correct answer is probably: "we don't know." Aside from that, we could discuss the possibilities. [list] focus inwardly or outwardly
focusing inwardly might increase responses
focusing inwardly might increase behavioral noise in the test data, as engage in excessive monitoring of their own physiology during the exam
some people fall asleep with their eyes closed
some people might concentrate better
some people might day-dream more and have more difficulty concentrating
some people might be less distracted by the environment.My experience is that the data are generally cleaner and more normal looking with eyes open. We also can't monitor things like voluntary eye-crossing CMs with eyes closed. Anyone ever try that one? Here is a pic of a sub-optimal polygraph environment, in which I would probably have the subject close his eyes. 
Jails go to great lengths to take the edge off inmate rage. Still, I have to wonder what kind of postage-stamp they licked before painting this.
hi-ho,
r
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"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here. This is the war room."
--(Stanley Kubrick/Peter Sellers - Dr. Strangelove, 1964)
[This message has been edited by rnelson (edited 02-22-2008).] IP: Logged |
Taylor
Member
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posted 02-22-2008 07:26 PM
I ask them to close thier eyes and 99% will. I also have them facing towards me so I can see any movements in their body...toes, muscles, biting cheek and eye mvmt (mental math) on CQ's. If they have real fluttery eyes I will have them focus on the wall directly ahead. I feel I get better results with no distractions. It would be a great research project.IP: Logged |
sackett
Moderator
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posted 02-22-2008 10:30 PM
necotito2,I have (purposefully) set my exam room in such a manner that I can watch the examinee's front and entire left side, then test with eyes closed (them, not me). It takes away a lot of visual reference and interference during the exam and makes the examinee listen more attentively. Works great for me, Jim IP: Logged |
stat
Member
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posted 02-22-2008 10:49 PM
I agree with all references to doing things that are backed up by data----but sometimes----if not rarely, we examiners will experience phenom first hand enough to make us warey of something.
I have experience too many times in 3 hr pcsot exams where admittedly, things are a bit boring----even for the nervous examinee. The calibration, the sterility of the room, the silence----it's all quit lulling, even for guilty people. Add to that the large percentage of sex offenders on various meds---many of which make them lethargic, and I find myself seeing men nod off at chart 3. True, I have also seen examinees PRETEND to nod off as a behavioral countermeasure, but the majority of "nod-off" occurances seem in earnest. I can't recall any other type of exam having that lullaby effect---other than the sex offender who is taking his 8th polygraph test,and can run a test himself he is so familiar with the process (intest process that is.)
So, in my anecdotal experience, I NEVER allow my examinees to close their eyes, and in my experience (with Hoosier sex offenders), allowing closed eyes promotes REM, not RAS (lol).
But, I also double tie my shoes, not based on data, but based on experience-----and I doubt anyone could pursuade me otherwise.
[This message has been edited by stat (edited 02-22-2008).] IP: Logged |
stat
Member
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posted 02-22-2008 11:17 PM
Ray, at least the serene wall paint'in does not contain the classic "Inquisition Torture" montage.
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sackett
Moderator
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posted 02-22-2008 11:23 PM
Gee stat,you might want to liven things up a little in your suite... LOL
Jim
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stat
Member
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posted 02-22-2008 11:41 PM
Very Funny Jim, it's not an every day occurance, but tell me Jim. Have you given tests to men who have been polygraphed 8, 10, 20 times in 2-5 yrs? It really is very different than the deer-in-the-headlights tests a lot of cops get to run. PCSOT examiners don't frequently get to hear the nervous stuttering "wwwwhats THAT used for" as the examinees nervously point to the menacing equipment. Many times they sit in the chair like a barber's customer---assuming the position (so to speak) and say..."lets get this over with."[This message has been edited by stat (edited 02-22-2008).] IP: Logged |
rnelson
Member
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posted 02-23-2008 12:21 AM
Is it time for a pimp-my-poly-suite thread?r IP: Logged |
sackett
Moderator
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posted 02-23-2008 12:41 PM
stat,I understand what you're reporting. Yes, I do conduct main/mon PCSOT with some who have several tests in their past. Maybe not as high as 10-20, but certainly some in the 3-6 over the past 2-4 years range. I have tried to keep it interesting by ignoring any previous tests and when they bring it up, make them all seem unimportant and insist THIS is the test they better pass. Of course, I'm rather assertive and passionate in my presentation, which helps keep them involved and interested. Sometimes though, I must admit I get the periodic "slug." Jim P.S. Ray, does your "pimp your suite" comment include crimson drapes, red shag carpet and black felt paintings of dogs playing poker? If so, I'm in... [This message has been edited by sackett (edited 02-23-2008).] IP: Logged |
stat
Member
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posted 02-23-2008 12:49 PM
Do I strike you as being uninteresting and/or boring? I run a pretty lively test---especially during the sack race and bingo phase.I think the "slug" problem is more a medication phenom than it is for lack of animation during tests. 65-75% of my offenders are on some pretty serious meds---benzodiazepines and drugs like 24 hr Seroquil (anti-psychotic). It was not uncommon at all to have examinees with tardic and/or toxic disconesia (major tremors and saliva/snot/skin issues)from such over-medication. Some of these cats even napped through 9/11. [This message has been edited by stat (edited 02-23-2008).] IP: Logged |
rnelson
Member
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posted 02-23-2008 02:34 PM
Jim,You forgot: any form of Elvis or John Wayne memorabilia. r ------------------
"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here. This is the war room."
--(Stanley Kubrick/Peter Sellers - Dr. Strangelove, 1964)
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stat
Member
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posted 02-23-2008 02:37 PM
"Seroquil;
For those times when you'd rather just sleep or look away guiltlessly."
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lietestec
Moderator
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posted 02-25-2008 09:54 PM
The research was done by Richard Golden in the early 1960's. Mr. Golden is from Chicago and was trained by Dick Arther. You should be able to find him in the APA Directory. He writes about the the "Closed Eyes Polygraph Technique" in the Volume I, Number 2 - September-October 1966 "Journal of Polygraph Studies" published by R.O. Arther for many decades and distributed free to those who asked to be added to his mailing list. The name was later changed to the "Journal of Polygraph Science" which it remains today. I don't know of any that have been published since his death. The article shows no copyright so it is able to be distributed.Like Barry, I let the person decide if they want their eyes closed or not. I have suggested it many times after an "stim" test and it did produce better charts; however, some examinees did not like it (it made some dizzy),and it did not produce better charts for them so it is obviously one of those things particular to an examinee. Also, many have asked if they could close their eyes. Regardless, if anybody wants the article, I can get it to you. IP: Logged |
Taylor
Member
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posted 02-25-2008 10:04 PM
I would be interested in the article even though it is 40+ years old. quest4truth@msn.com IP: Logged |
Buster
Member
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posted 02-25-2008 10:06 PM
I was going to post that. I have a history of sport conussions and closing my eyes makes me dizzy.We were trained in closed eyes in my academy, but I kept them open. I tell my subjects to keep them open. IP: Logged |
rnelson
Member
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posted 02-25-2008 10:32 PM
lietesttec,If you can fax me that article, I can make a .pdf for people. 720 554 7677 r ------------------
"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here. This is the war room."
--(Stanley Kubrick/Peter Sellers - Dr. Strangelove, 1964)
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J.B. McCloughan
Administrator
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posted 02-25-2008 10:38 PM
I have a question.Is it easier for one to engage in mental countermeasures with their eyes closed or open? IP: Logged |
lietestec
Moderator
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posted 02-25-2008 10:41 PM
Sorry R - I failed to identify myself - Elmer Criswell. I'll be able to get that to you in the next day or two. I have it on a thumb drive now in PDF, but I have a computer limitation - that being that I am limited to very little computer skills and don't know how to e-mail it to you from the thmbdrive. If I can figure it out, I'll get it to you by tomorrow - if not - FAX on Wednesday.IP: Logged |
sackett
Moderator
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posted 02-25-2008 10:47 PM
J.B.,good question. I don't know what, if any, research says, but I would think that closing eyes would really have no added effect or ability. Most people, epsecially liars and bad guys, are very unsettled with being questioned with their eyes closed. Kinda like testing a cop on an IAU with their eyes closed. Very un-nerving. I don't see how it would amplify any ability; however, as usual, I could be wrong... On another note, Buster has eluded to a good idea. Next couple of tests I run, I'll close MY eyes. I'll let you know how it goes... Jim [This message has been edited by sackett (edited 02-25-2008).] IP: Logged |
lietestec
Moderator
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posted 02-25-2008 10:57 PM
Hey Jamie:It's nice to hear from you. I hope all is well in Michigan and that your campaign is working well for you. If they closed their eyes and start to dissociate - their eyes should begin to display "REM"'s (rapid eye movements in relationship to the theta state their mind is in). SO I WILL TEST. If they are only listening to the sound of my voice until it ends and them, answer "NO" I may ask a "Yes" question where a "No" answer question should be; e.g., "Are you now in the United States? which when they answer "No", I will then indicate to them what their little game is not fooling anyone. Good luck! Elmer Criswell IP: Logged |
rnelson
Member
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posted 02-26-2008 10:54 AM
Thanks Elmer Criswell!Its an interesting article.
http://www.raymondnelson.us/qc/Golden_1966_closed_eyes_polygraph.pdf as always: polyguest
torquemada Even more fascinating is the historical interest at the bottom of the last page. r ------------------
"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here. This is the war room."
--(Stanley Kubrick/Peter Sellers - Dr. Strangelove, 1964)
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